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NickCoons
msg: 11

Wed, Dec 14, 2005, 12:24pm

SEAnative,

It looks your comments were directed more towards Ordinanceman than myself, but I'll comment anyway.

<But you would be ignorant to believe that these people want to be here illegally.>

Of course someone would prefer being here legally vs. illegally. However, the people that are here illegally prefer being here illegally vs. staying in Mexico, otherwise they wouldn't be here illegally.

<It is very difficult to get papers these days, because this has become a country of selfish people who are unwilling to share the wealth.>

It is exactly *because* we have "wealth redistribution systems" (welfare, state-funded healthcare, etc) that has caused people to want to protect the borders.

You're right that it is not easy to be here legally from south of the border. However, for someone that's here illegally, it is easy to get welfare or have the state take care of providing healthcare.

I think the real solution is to abolish welfare and other socialist programs. If no one (legal or illegal) can get a free hand-out, then those that live here legally won't have a basis for objecting those who are here illegally. If someone is here illegally and they can't "steal" from others (through socialist programs) and they have to earn their living just like everyone else, what do I care if they're here? Why would anyone care?

<That has made its way all the way up to the highest governments, and now there are laws that make it next to impossible for the average Mexican family to be allowed into the U.S.>

I don't think there are laws that make it especially hard for Mexicans to immigrate to the US. I think the laws are equally stringent no matter your origins.. it just so happens that most Mexicans probably don't meet the requirements for entering, and because they are close and it is relatively easy to enter (vs. from some third-world country on the other side of the globe), the issue comes up more often and is more publicized because it happens more. But I don't know of any laws making it specifically difficult for a Mexican family to immigrate to the US vs. from anywhere else.

<But I'm sure I might as well be speaking to a brick wall, so I'll end my argument here.>

In case you change your mind... :-).
SEAnative
msg: 12

Wed, Dec 14, 2005, 3:13pm

You're right, that was directed moreso at Mr. Ord. Like I said, I agree with your idea of illegals receiving welfare, etc.... with the exception of the children. I can even see the benefits of this idea:

<I think the real solution is to abolish welfare and other socialist programs.>

However, disability and other special cases would have to be given exception.

<If no one (legal or illegal) can get a free hand-out, then those that live here legally won't have a basis for objecting those who are here illegally. If someone is here illegally and they can't "steal" from others (through socialist programs) and they have to earn their living just like everyone else, what do I care if they're here? Why would anyone care?>

Many don't need a reason. The fact that they're here causes people to say "they're taking our jobs" and whatnot, in which case I point to what I said about Americans sharing the wealth, and that these people are providing for their families. Besides that, it's not like their taking your 9-5 accounting job. The vast majority are doing manual labor that most other people don't want to do anyway. And even illegal immigrants pay taxes, and they contribute far more to the economy than they take away.

I don't mean to turn this Arizona
Arizona(air-i'-ZON-u')

The State of Arizona comprises the extreme south-western portion of the United States. It is bounded on the north by Utah, on the east by New Mexico, on the south by Mexico, and on the west by California and Nevada.

forum into a political forum. I was just responding to the topic. But I used to feel the same way the average American feels about illegal immigrants until I married into a family of them. Now I see how ignorant and selfish and insensitive I was.
NickCoons
msg: 13

Wed, Dec 14, 2005, 9:41pm

SEAnative,

<I can even see the benefits of this idea:>

<<I think the real solution is to abolish welfare and other socialist programs.>>

<However, disability and other special cases would have to be given exception.>

Personally, I wouldn't make any exceptions. There are several reasons I'm against socialist programs, the most important being that it robs an individual of their property (their money) without their consent. Having welfare or other socialist programs available for anyone, including the disabled, causes that to happen.

If socialist programs were abolished, there would be few people truly in need of assistance, like the disabled that you mention. With an extraordinarily smaller percentage of people "sucking" money out of the system, surely charities could pick up where government left off in assisting those that truly need it.

<Many don't need a reason. The fact that they're here causes people to say "they're taking our jobs" and whatnot, in which case I point to what I said about Americans sharing the wealth, and that these people are providing for their families.>

The way for one to protect their job is not to outlaw competition (whether it be from their neighbor or someone in another country) but rather to do the job better than anyone else and at a competitive price. If someone can do the job better than you, or is willing to do the same job for less money, then you deserve to lose your job.

<And even illegal immigrants pay taxes, and they contribute far more to the economy than they take away.>

I really don't have any statistics to make an argument on that one way or the other. I know they pay excise taxes (sales tax, phone taxes, etc) because they spend money like anyone else. But do they pay income taxes as well?

<I don't mean to turn this Arizona
Arizona(air-i'-ZON-u')

The State of Arizona comprises the extreme south-western portion of the United States. It is bounded on the north by Utah, on the east by New Mexico, on the south by Mexico, and on the west by California and Nevada.

forum into a political forum. I was just responding to the topic.>

No problem, so long as it relates to Arizona
Arizona(air-i'-ZON-u')

The State of Arizona comprises the extreme south-western portion of the United States. It is bounded on the north by Utah, on the east by New Mexico, on the south by Mexico, and on the west by California and Nevada.

still (and it seems to), I don't see a problem with it.

<By the way, NickCoons, I was hoping to see a reply from you in the thread I posted regarding diversity in Phoenix.>

Just did that now, but don't have much to offer in that arena.

<I see that you visit this forum often (being the webmaster and all)>

I visit the forums now and then :-).

<and while I know you don't live in Phoenix, surely you've been there, no?>

Actually I've lived in Phoenix and its suburbs my entire life (I was born in Phoenix).
SEAnative
msg: 14

Sat, Dec 17, 2005, 2:12am

<But do they pay income taxes as well? >
Yes, they do. The government assigns them an ITIN number (I believe it stands for Income Tax Identification Number) for them to use on their tax forms instead of an SSN.

<Just did that now, but don't have much to offer in that arena. >

<Actually I've lived in Phoenix and its suburbs my entire life (I was born in Phoenix).>
Then why not? =P
NickCoons
msg: 15

Sat, Dec 17, 2005, 6:02pm

As I've lived here my entire life, I don't really have a frame of reference for comparison. Things like seeing billboards in Spanish (which you mentioned you've seen in the Bay area, and we see here also) don't occur to me as being any more unusual than seeing others in English. The only things I notice are those that my inlaws (from the east) point out to me as being odd when they visit.

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